The automation revolution is upon us and may be accelerated by the current state of the economy, where there are more jobs in the market than humans to work them. In this episode, Dr. Gary Deel talks to APU business professor Dr. Eugene Kaufman about the robotics revolution and the integration of technology and artificial intelligence in the workforce. Learn why it’s increasingly important for young professionals to focus on developing skills throughout their working lives so they’re able to be flexible and adaptable to inevitable technological changes in the workplace.
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Dr. Gary Deel: Welcome to the podcast, Intellectible. I’m your host, Dr. Gary Deel. Today, we’re talking about the future of business and the economy in America. My guest today is Dr. Eugene Kaufman. Eugene is a faculty member at American Public University and a business strategist. He has more than two decades of leadership, business development and teaching experience. He was raised in Brooklyn, New York before moving to California for college, and then ended up in Las Vegas, Nevada.
As an astute traveler, he’s been in 46 countries so far on five different continents. Dr. Kaufman has taught not only online, but in civilian and military facilities. Eugene, welcome to Intellectible and thank you for being our guest today.
Dr. Eugene Kaufman: Thank you, Dr. Deel. It’s a pleasure being here.
Dr. Gary Deel: Likewise. So we’re here today to talk about the state of the economy at present and moving into the future. And that really is your specialty so I’m interested in getting your thoughts on this. We’re recording this podcast, for the sake of our listeners’ context, in the end of August 2021.
At the beginning of this year, we had hoped with the emergence of the vaccine and the subsiding of COVID, that that would be a thing of the past, that we’d be talking about it strictly in the past tense by this point, or at least a lot more than we are currently.
But unfortunately, we’re fighting, as everyone in the present knows, a resurgence of the pandemic through mutations and variants, including what appears to be the prevalent Delta variant right now is ravaging through different parts of the United States, and of course all around the world, depending on public health policies and what different communities are doing to fight it.
We’re also battling some misinformation slash disinformation campaigns around the vaccine and a push from what is being called the vaccine hesitant demographic of our population, those individuals who are refusing to get the vaccine for various different reasons. So with that in mind, we’re still in a little bit of limbo around the state of the economy and what the future looks like. But I’m curious to get your thoughts based on the baseline of where we are at present. What are you seeing over the next 1 year, 5 years, 10 years? Where do we go from here?
Dr. Eugene Kaufman: Oh, thank you. That’s a really, really good question and you gave a lot of great information from a historical perspective. Based on the modeling that we had back when this whole thing started in 2020, we expected this COVID to be in history by May of 2021. So that was a few months ago. And the numbers were there.
One thing we did not expect is for the Delta variant to show up, and the Delta variant right now is about between 98.8% to almost 99% of all cases in America. The Delta variant is very different. It is not the same as the alpha variant that we had in the beginning. A lot of people think that because it’s called COVID-19, that that’s the same bug, same virus. It’s not. It’s very, very different. This one is far more invasive. It literally spreads as fast as chicken pox, so pretty much to catch it, you just need to be in the same place with another person, which is why the vaccines are so important.
And as of yesterday, the Pfizer vaccine is now fully approved, so there really is no excuse not to be vaccinated. Now the problem is, of course, you do have a lot of people who are still hesitant. And it really doesn’t matter what happens, they will refuse until the very last moment, if ever to take that vaccine. And I fully understand them. I know a lot of these people. And I talk to them and they’re really smart people. They’re good people. They really have real concerns about it, and they’re just not going to do it unless they end up in the ICU.
So based on the research and based on the modeling by the CDC, by the National Institute of Health, as well as the Gates Foundation, the date that we’re estimating that everything is going to get better, start getting better with the virus is around the beginning of October to the mid of October.
And the reason for that is very straightforward. There’s just not going to be as many people who have either not been infected with the Delta variant or actually not been vaccinated for the virus to be able to spread. And like I said, it’s not just wishful thinking, this is just biology. It’s science. We’ve seen these same events happen. Whether we’re talking about the Black Plague or talking about the Spanish flu of 1918, all of the viruses follow the same path.
So we are very optimistic that somewhere around Christmas time, we are going to see a massive, massive drop of cases. We’re going to see ourselves slowly going back to normal. And Dr. Fauci actually spoke today, or was it maybe yesterday, and said that he’s hoping that by Spring time this is all going to be a bad dream.
We have no reason not to believe that these modeling was going to be off, unless there’s going to be another variant that’s going to be extremely different from the Delta and then we go for round seven, or eight. Already lost track of that.
As for the economy-wise, our government has been pumping a lot of money into the economy, whether it was giving out money to businesses to stay in business when everything was closed, whether it’s assistance for people who have children, we had the largest increase in the food stamps program, all which pretty much was, again, free money.
And of course the projects that’s probably going to pass Congress where the infrastructure bill is coming in. We are seeing quite literally trillions and trillions of dollars being pumped into the economy very, very, very rapidly. So a lot of people or a lot of corporations are flushed with cash, which is why last week for the first time in American history, we have physically more jobs in the market than we actually have humans to work those jobs. This has never happened before.
So a lot of these pressures, which a lot of people say, well, that’s causing inflation. The answer is “Yes,” but it’s actually has to do with something called pull-based inflation, not demand-based. This means that yes, prices are going to go up, but they’re going to stabilize. We are going to see a lot of opportunities for people, but we’re also going to be seeing a lot of businesses starting to figure out what they’re going to do when they can’t find the workers and they probably never will.
So this may actually drive it, and we actually, we are seeing it already, that this is the beginning of the robotics revolution, where robots are coming in, automation is coming in, in an unprecedented manner and they’re going to be joining the workforce. So that’s going to create a whole new series of challenges and interesting situations for the workforce.
Dr. Gary Deel: You had talked about October, and that’s interesting, I had not read that previously, but I take it at face value. Now, is it fair to say that that’s an assumption that the COVID virus does not mutate again, in the sense that it could potentially reinfect the entire general population through another mutation that sends it back through?
Dr. Eugene Kaufman: Absolutely. You’re absolutely correct. There is that assumption. Nobody saw the Delta coming. And it was such a completely novel version of that COVID virus, that that’s why it caught us off guard. But the good news is, so far we’re seeing that the Pfizer vaccine is quite effective against people actually ending up in a hospital or dying. The Moderna’s actually seems to be even more effective against the Delta. There is really no reason to believe that the next mutation is going to be so different that our vaccines are going to be completely worthless.
It seems that they are working as they’re supposed to, which a lot of people—they confuse the idea of a vaccine as being something like a shield, where if you get a vaccine, you can’t catch the virus. You will not get sick. And no, that’s not the purpose of the vaccine. That’s not how vaccines work. You could catch it, you’re just not going to end up in a hospital. It’ll be like a flu. You’ll be able to stay three, five days at home, drink some liquid, stay at a bed, take some ibuprofen or Tylenol, and you’re going to be fine. You’re not going to end up in the ICU dying. And that’s why it’s so important that these vaccines are spread across the world, everyone gets vaccinated. And I can’t really push that point enough.
Dr. Gary Deel: Yeah. It’s unfortunate that we have such a significant minority of the population that are vaccine, what we’re calling “vaccine hesitant” or “vaccine skeptical,” for lack of a better terminology. It is a minority, but it’s significant enough at this point that it prevents herd immunity, and it also creates in doing so a human population of a Petri dish that allows for these continued variants to mutate.
Dr. Eugene Kaufman: That’s correct.
Dr. Gary Deel: So it prolongs a problem that unfortunately need not be prolonged, and will create, inevitably, suffering and death that need not occur under this. We’ve lost, I think as of the most recent numbers, close to 700,000 people, many of whom were members of the workforce prior to this, some of whom of course were retirees and not members of the workforce, but many of them were part of the working population of the country. And by we, I say the United States. Of course, we’re not speaking about the global numbers, which are in the millions at this point. So, it is a significant problem and we need to expedite the solution as quickly as possible.
But I’ve talked to several other faculty members of ours here at American Public University in the past on different episodes about the automation revolution and what’s coming in terms of the technological shift in our economy, away from human manpower and toward robotics and technology, as you alluded to. I talked to Dr. Larry Parker [The Automation of Logistics — How the Pandemic Has Spurred Growth] about the implications of this shift in the transportation and logistics world. I talked to Dr. Kevin Forehand [Technology Continues to Revolutionize Retail] about the implications in the retail world.
What do you see generally as the end game there? Because of course, some of the arguably the brightest minds looking at this problem, the Bill Gates, the Elon Musks, Stephen Hawkings of the world, or the late Stephen Hawking, have expressed severe concerns about the need to consider the future where we lose such a substantial number of jobs to automation that the unemployment rate goes from what it is today, and it seems like a sort of a calm before the storm, as you mentioned. We now at present have more jobs than people.
But I think we’re moving in a long-term direction toward just the opposite. And some have speculated that the unemployment rate could jump to 20%, 30%, 40% as jobs are technologized and automated. Is that what you see in the future? And if so, is there any sense of scale or timeline as to when we get there?
Dr. Eugene Kaufman: Yeah. Well, it’s not as dire as it sounds, though you’re absolutely right, that the revolution in the workforce is coming. How soon? You’re probably going to start seeing things change in the next two to three years, and I think we’re going to see a massive change up to scale probably by the year 2030.
I am a representative at an organization called CES, which is a technology show that travels around the world, and everybody brings their greatest ideas and minds to show where automation is going and everything with technology. It’s actually a lot of fun to watch what people have to offer. Companies are thinking about the future.
And, generally speaking, I think it’s best to look at this from a different perspective. If you think about it, in the 1800s, in the late 1800s, when the first automobile was designed, and the beginning of 1900s, when Henry Ford came out with his automobile, people thought that this is going to be the beginning and the end of so much, because what are we going to do with all the horses? What are we going to do with all the people who take care of the horses?
And the answer is, well, there are a lot fewer horses today than there were in the 1900s. There is a lot fewer people taking care of horses than there were in the 1800 and 1900s. But what happened to all of their children and grandchildren, et cetera? Well, they kind of changed their professions. They moved on, they got better jobs.
The point of that whole idea is that the technology is going to change everything. It is going to fully integrate. Mainly has to do with artificial intelligence, which a lot of people confuse with artificial consciousness. Artificial intelligence is very different. Artificial consciousness is the idea of that a computer is going to become aware, and it’s going to think that it’s alive and wants to conquer the world, which of course is false because computers couldn’t care less.
We can create artificial intelligence. We can make a computer to think, learn, solve problems. And we had amazing progress over the last several years in this. And when I say we, I mean, companies like Google, Apple, et cetera.
What we’re going to see is a complete and total integration of technology and artificial intelligence across the spectrum to a point where we don’t feel it. We’re using it today. Every time you use Google, Google uses artificial intelligence to try to figure out what exactly you are searching for based on who you are, where you are, and what you’ve searched before. With all the data that we’re getting, artificial intelligence helps us pick the right pieces of that data and use it in a way that’s going to be beneficial.
With that said, with the full total integration of self-driving vehicles, 5G technology that’s going to completely revolutionize the way we communicate once it goes full scale across the United States, maybe in the sixth generation, 6G, might come down the pipeline. Newer, faster processors, the idea of completely new energy sources, the battery is being revolutionized as we speak today.
Actually today, there was a big article about batteries that are a size of pins and needles that have the same power as AA batteries. Everything in the realm of technology is changing to a point where it becomes completely and totally integrated with us, and we interact with them in such a way that it will be natural. They become our friends where we can’t live without it. If you think about, can you really live without your smartphone? It’s part of who we are. With that said, you’re going to see a massive change in the number of jobs and the type of jobs that are going to be needed.
It is estimated that by the year 2030, more than 60% of the jobs that we have today will no longer be in existence. They are not going to be needed. They are going to be replaced with other types of jobs in industries that do not exist today, which means, for anyone who’s listening to this podcast and worried about the future and about their job being replaced by a robot or a computer, it means that you don’t really have to worry about it, you just have to be flexible. You have to be willing to learn new skills. You have to be able to integrate all the information that’s coming around, the new skills that are required and move along with the industry.
It’s not a bad thing. It’s actually quite a good thing in many ways. For one, it’ll give you more time to do the things you love. Two, it’ll increase our productivity many fold, which also would mean that we probably not all need to work. You may find yourself in a situation where universal basic income is going to be a reality, where our robotics, our computer systems, our industry is so productive that human effort is no longer necessary.
And our economy can easily provide you with a place to live, food, shelter, comfort, and you can go on and doing other things in life, such as art, or science, or whatever else that you would have a passion for. So universal basic income is definitely something that’s going to be coming down the pipeline without destroying the state of our economy and our deficits, and that’s an interesting future to think about.
Dr. Gary Deel: Yeah. I’m glad you mentioned UBI at the end, because I think that that’s the linchpin to the relief of not having to worry about the technology revolution of the future, because you had mentioned that people should not necessarily worry. But that all hinges on the assumption that the government will not allow people to starve to death.
And I may be a little bit cynical there, but we seem to have such a resistance to that, especially in a capitalist economy, that it seems like too socialist or communist an idea to get our heads around. I’m not sure how quickly, if ever we’ll get there. And the scaling element is, I think something that people far too often overlook here. The horse analogy that you explained earlier is one that’s commonly brought up.
The difference there being, of course, that when horses were replaced by automobiles, and locomotive power and other forms of moving people and goods from place to place, arguably we employed far more people in the production and manufacturer of trains, and automobiles, and planes and so on than we ever did as horseshoe fitters, and stable bearers, and all the folks that were responsible for maintaining the horses that we used for our economy.
So there was a one-to-one, if not a one-to-two, or three, or four that resulted in the employment remaining, at least steady or sufficient, to keep everyone that wanted a job or needed a job from starvation, for the most part, of course, exceptions allowing. But here we run into a situation that is quite a bit different with the automation world that we’re moving into. And that is that the scaling of technology is such that we should not realistically expect one-to-one.
There’s an idea that, well, if you’re currently a clerk at the checkout counter at Walmart and you want to survive the information revolution or the automation revolution, you need only go get yourself a degree in computer development, or software design, or something that is relevant in the information age and your job security is virtually guaranteed.
But I think that’s failing to recognize the replacement power of technology is far greater than one-to-one in that regard. And I often use the analogy or the example for listeners and anyone involved in this conversation to think about your local Walmart, for example. And if your Walmart in your community is anything like the Walmarts in mine, you probably have already a little bit of infiltration of self-service technology in that front checkout aisle. It’s usually at the ends. And it started with one or two machines.
And if you’re old enough to remember the very first one or two machines, they were pretty buggy, and people were skeptical about them, and there wasn’t a lot of trust there and they weren’t reliable. And so there was a lot of manpower invested in just those one or two machines. It was pretty much a one-to-one, okay, you’re not standing behind the aisle literally scanning items, but you’re standing right by the machine to troubleshoot every error that virtually every customer has at every encounter.
Today, removed maybe 5, 10, 15, 20 years from the very first machines that were put in those environments, at least in my area, those areas, those sections at the end of the checkout line are 15 to 20 machines deep. And there’s usually only one checkout individual or one sort of handler overseeing their operation. Why? Because the technology has evolved, and advanced and improved in such a way over those years, that they’re no longer necessary for constant babysitting. There are the occasional issues where the machine may not work perfectly. And of course there are things that machines can’t yet do. If you’re buying alcohol, someone’s got to verify your ID manually, that kind of thing. But for the most part, you’ve got these armies of machines that are working fairly seamlessly with minimal human oversight.
And, by the way, it’s important to remember that each one of those machines replaces more than three employees because they’re 24 hour operations. And so one machine sits there all day and all night, every single day of the year. It doesn’t need time off, or breaks, or vacation, or sick days. So you’ve got this tremendous exponential sort of multiplier factor that happens with technology in such a way that I think it’s unrealistic for us to expect that the economy would support a job for every single person that wants it in that information age.
I think, to your point, at the end of your last thoughts there, that the universal basic income will absolutely be necessary to support the vast number of people, that regardless of how well they try to prepare themselves, there just won’t be enough of these jobs to support the manual labor that’s being outsourced or replaced by technology, robotics, automation today. That to me, in my view, seems inevitable. Would you agree?
Dr. Eugene Kaufman: Yes, I would definitely agree. There’ll be a lot fewer lower-paying jobs, and you’re absolutely correct. One thing, though, and I’ve been asked this question multiple times, so what advice can you give to young graduates or people in high school right now, or even junior high school? And the answer is “Worry less about that degree and worry more about the skill sets.”
In other words, when you go to college, don’t look at it like, “I’m getting a degree in this one thing and I am going to do this for the rest of my life.” Truth be told, by the year 2050, 98% of all jobs that we have today will not exist.
It doesn’t mean that there’s not going to be a lot more jobs than people. It simply means that the jobs are going to change and they are going to actually be different. So the skills, what can you do is what’s going to matter more than what actually degree you have. So get your degree, but pick up the skills.
And anytime you can pick up a new skill, whether you do it through online learning, like LinkedIn Learning, or through your club or some kind of an organization, that is something that makes you more valuable to an economy and a future workforce that is consistently changing with the evolution of technology.
Dr. Gary Deel: We talk about those skills, I think that’s all good advice. And I think there are some obvious directions that one could point, a perspective individual, working professional in some intuitive ideas as to what might be useful in the 21st century moving ahead. And these are the areas related to technology, and IT, and hardware and software development that provides the support for the kinds of technologies that we’re seeing in the retail sector, in transportation and logistics.
We’re on the cusp of automated self-driving vehicles that are almost perfectly autonomous. They’re not there yet. And there’s been some constant debate over how long it will take us to work out all the corner cases in the Tesla autopilot, or the Waymo vehicles, or all the different types of technology that are out there to try to solve this problem.
But I don’t think there’s any doubt that it’s coming eventually, and we’re just nearing the finish line. So there’s going to be an economy all around supporting those technologies. But I’m curious to know, are there any areas of professional occupation or development that are less intuitive, that are less obvious, but which you feel might be worthy of consideration for young professionals looking to develop themselves today?
Dr. Eugene Kaufman: I would honestly say that there isn’t a single field that we know of that we can predict will be here in 10 years from now because of so many changes. When you mentioned about software development and technology, it is estimated by the year 2030, our computers will have the processing power to create and design their own software and their own hardware without human interaction. That’s the estimate right now at the rate we’re going and expansion of artificial intelligence.
This means that being a hardware designer is going to be just as obsolete of a profession as being a checkout clerk today. It’s just a matter of time. There is no reason to assume that computers will not be able to do practically everything that we do, which brings the question, what are humans good for? Well, the answer is soft skills. So being able to communicate, being able to think, being able to utilize the tools that technology has provided us and make it happen, or solve problems, or make something different. This is what gives us humans an advantage over technology at the moment.
Technology is not our enemy. It’s our friend. There is going to be an integration process, which will increase, of course, our efficiency, our productivity, our wealth, our comfort and our longevity. We haven’t had a chance to talk about the medical transformations that are occurring because of technology, and we might leave that for another podcast.
But just generally, it is estimated that if everything that we are seeing right now is going to go to fruition, probably every single person who’s under the age of 60 right now will have a good chance to see their 100th birthday. And children who are born today, and this was in Time Magazine a few years ago, they had a great article about this, they’re estimating that they will see their 142nd birthday.
So that means we’re going to live longer. We’re going to live healthier. We’re going to have fewer diseases of “old age.” And we’re going to have to have skills that can work together with technology to keep ourselves productive. Or we’re going to have to have technology to be so productive from the grand microeconomic scale that it can support all of us not having to be productive, working in the light of the industrial revolution.
Dr. Gary Deel: Yeah, I think that’s an interesting point. Centenarians are relatively rare today. I think it’s 1 in every 5,000 humans lives to see their 100th birthday. But you’re right, medical technology is growing exponentially. And that presents as an alternate point, an additional strain on the global economy in the sense that as people live longer, provided that we’re not working longer or contributing longer, the rest of society has to find a way to support that aging generation.
Today it’s the case, if my reading is correct from an article a few months ago, that Japan sells more, I guess I could say senior or geriatric diapers related to incontinence and age-related bladder issues than actual baby diapers today, because procreation there and new families are so rare relative to the aging generation, sort of the equivalent of our Baby Boomers that are entering retirement. And so this is a really interesting situation where you don’t have enough youth to support an economy that can carry the older generation.
But, then again, that presupposes that the older generation is incapable, or unwilling, or both to work and continue to work. We sort of presuppose today that the retirement age in our society customarily thought of as 65 or so is appropriate, but that’s sort of continually been raised over the years. And there was a point in human history, of course, where people didn’t live much past 30 to begin with. So obviously, 65 is kind of arbitrary. And if you could establish a state of public health in your community where people can live coherent, able-bodied lives up into their 90s and 100s, well then there might not be any reason to maintain a 65 retirement and push that up a couple of decades so that people can contribute for longer. But all of this has implications.
But your point about medical technology is interesting, because I think you’re absolutely right. I still am not convinced that there are any jobs, soft skills driven or otherwise, that technology is not poised to eventually surpass us.
You reminded me with your comments about the medical field of, earlier this year I was in a motocross related accident. I broke two ribs and punctured a lung. And what was interesting about that was I visited the hospital in the day of the accident, and I went through radiology for an MRI and an x-ray. And at the end of that process, the doctors reviewed, I guess my charts and concluded that I just was bruised up and banged up and that I should go home and rest. Those were my instructions.
I was called the next morning at about 7:00 AM after having driven home and spent the night at home that some other radiologists had looked at my charts and determined that I did have in fact breaks and what they call a pneumothorax, which is where your lung is punctured, and you’ve got an air pocket in your chest and that I needed to go to the hospital immediately.
So, fortunately in my case, it all worked out. It wasn’t a severe issue and I was able to get the treatment that I needed without further complications. But it reminded me of an article I had read related specifically to radiology, and more in the vein of oncology than fractures and breaks of the kind that I had, where it was described that certain shades of gray on a radiology chart an exam, an x-ray or an MRI, that would look for cancer, look for tumors, may be literally undetectable to the human eye just because of the lack of depth and specificity detailed precision measurements that our eyes can or can’t do. They’re just not perfect measuring instruments.
But computers can. Computers can use optical sensors and see shades of gray and delineations distinctions in charts that we just cannot see. The best humans with the best eyesight, the most experienced radiologists can’t hold a candle to that because they don’t have the equipment. It’s not that they’re not smart enough or they’re not trying hard enough, they just don’t have the tools to do it as well.
Whereas a computer with a well-adapted optical sensor that can look at these charts can find tumors that we’re looking for to treat oncology patients that humans cannot. So this is just one example, but it reminded me of the implications of where technology is going in the medical field and elsewhere.
Dr. Eugene Kaufman: Yeah. Google did that experiment and they beat every radiologist that competed against them. They were able to scan and find things that the radiologist just couldn’t. Absolutely. Well, I’m glad you’re feeling better.
Dr. Gary Deel: Thank you. Yeah, it could have been a lot worse. But it was an interesting phone call to get the next morning to realize that I’ve been asleep overnight and a little sore, but little did I know I had two broken bones and a hole in my lung. So fortunately, it could have been a lot worse. I’m grateful that the mistake or the oversight that was made the night before was not something that resulted in a catastrophic problem for me, which it very well could have.
But with that being said, we’ve covered a lot today and I think we’ve given a baseline for what people might expect as we move forward. I think there’s a lot of changes on the horizon, and I think we’ve given people some sense of how they might prepare for that. Albeit the future is certainly, to a certain extent, unpredictable.
And then we’re living in unprecedented times amidst a global pandemic and a significant deterioration in public confidence around our institutions, the very nature of medical science, our government, organizations like the CDC around recommendations for things like social distancing, and mask wearing, and everything has become politicized and controversial today, I don’t think for the better. So I’m not sure where that takes us. I’m not extremely confident that it won’t be a painful transition to the next stage of sort of human existence on our planet. But I hope that our better senses and our better intuitions will prevail on these issues to mitigate the amount of suffering that we need incur as we make our way through the challenges that await us in the years and decades ahead.
Dr. Eugene Kaufman: I completely agree with you on. I think that we all should be optimistic. One thing for sure is that human race went through a lot of challenges. We went through a lot of political upheaval. We went through a lot of medical upheaval. We went through a lot of viruses and a lot of, a lot of, a lot of, a lot of issues, wars, et cetera. And in the end, we’re still here. We’re still standing. And we are better off now than we ever were in human history, whether it’s wealth-wise, literally our age wise and our ability to move forward. I mean, we’re now planning to put bases on the moon and eventually a colony on Mars, hopefully within the next 10 years.
So no matter what comes ahead, and I know the future is always scary, I think we should have faith and believe that everything’s going to turn out all right, as long as we all have the desire to do the best that we can, and to be kind to one another and to help each other through whatever challenges we have to deal with.
Dr. Gary Deel: I certainly hope so too. And I think those are great final thoughts to close out our episode. Well, I want to thank you for sharing your expertise and perspectives on these topics with us today. And thanks for joining me for this episode of Intellectible.
Dr. Eugene Kaufman: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.
Dr. Gary Deel: And thank you to our listeners for joining us. You can learn more about these topics by visiting the various American Public University blogs and podcasts. Be well and stay safe, everyone.